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11/03/2004: "Comments comments"

There were a few comments posted on the subject of Ugly Americans that I'd like to respond to:

DTC states:

> To say that the person who wrote the original piece about Ugly Americans is engaging in character assassination would make far more sense if the person was actually European.

Why? He's talking about a specific subgroup of Americans of which he feels he's not a part of.

It's no different than being African-American and disparaging the "Uncle Tom" or parody'ing the African-American crack addict. Or being Japanese and writing a disparaging critique on the materialistic whims of Japanese youth. Again, these people are characterizing a particular subgroup of their population (of which they are not a part of) as "bad."

> Ugly Americans is a real phenomenon, and while I was in London, I was quite dismayed as Saiwing and I kept encountering the same tour group from Baton Rouge, LA. Loud, boorish, overweight - members of this group insisted on making constant comments about the metric system (how exotic!), how America is great for having dollar bills instead of dollar coins (insulting the local currency - brilliant), and joking about afternoon tea.

Idiocy and naivete abound. I don't believe the author drove this point home at all otherwise it would just be Ugly Idiots. Instead he tried to equate accepting inferior service and attitudes as being reprehensible and an Ugly American. Refuting this was the point of my original post. I was incensed mostly by the "take it or leave it attitude" that he equated with being in the non-Ugly American cateogry. He expected people to simply accept inferior goods and service and inhospitable behavior as "part of the experience."

Poor service and inferior goods is not a reflection on the traveller but a reflection on the location. If they served me food with feces, am I to accept it as a "great" place to visit or suffer the branding of "Ugly American"?

> Part of the problem here is that you, Steve, are not the typical American nor are you exposed to typical Americans.

No the problem, like I described above, is that Europe has inferior service and hospitality relative to other areas I've mentioned. Regardless of culture, their service industry has been brought up with a socialist economy that de-emphasizes working hard for "extra cash." More specifically, low expectations on getting paid extra for "good" service has resulted in an inferior restaurant/tourist product."

Jenny writes:
>Caribbean and Southeast asian islands are places where you go to get treated like loyality. But as far as culture concern, WHAT CULTURE? Everything they do, they do it to cater and entertain the tourist

There is a great wealth of culture in the Carribbean and Southeast Asian Islands which unfortunately is rarely the primary focus of vacationers in those areas (those that wish to write about Ugly Americans here should definitely chime in). I definitely agree with what Jenny says in her post. Relatively speaking, the tourist industry is well honed in these islands as compared to Europe, which in my mind makes its location more ideal to visit-- this doesn't warrant branding me an Ugly American, but rather an American who has money and feels like Europe not on par with other countries in terms of its tourist trade.

John writes:
>If people don't like the way they're treated in other countries, it's up to them not to go rather than the other countries to change. If that results in such a drastic blow to their economy, as it has in places like Egypt, they will change and people there will resent America even more than before.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm merely posing that Ugly Americanism has nothing to do with accepting inferior shoddy service and that while culturally rich, that Europe is not a great place to visit if you're expecting hospitality and friendliness towards foreigners. But again that saying Europe's tourism industry sucks, doesn't make anyone an Ugly American. Being upset if their air conditioner broke and hotel management doesn't fix it, does not make you an Ugly American-- after all you paid for that service.

> That doesn't necessarily mean placating people who are rude or confrontational, but it does mean accepting that other cultures may place a higher value on social welfare than economic efficiency. The attitude that our prioritization of these ideals is the correct one and that others should adopt it is exactly the type of ethnocentrism that motivates the term in the first place.

I'm not saying that social welfare is "wrong". What I'm saying is that Europe's tourism trade and restaranteerism/service industry are inferior from other countries because of it-- and that it doesn't make me an Ugly American to point it out, but rather a logical one. It's simple wage-labor economics, if you offer more incentives for waiters (e.g. service tips) as standard practice which can constitute up to 20% of the tab, then maybe you'll get better service. Having a wonderful social welfare program in Europe coupled with the lack of service tips has resulted in crap service.

Replies: 7 Comments

I think a lot of the economic talk (air conditioner, service, etc) can be summed up into: You get what you pay for.

You go cheap, you get crap service. You go upper end, you're treated like a king. Same anywhere.

But of course "cheap" and "expensive" is all relative. $50 here is not equal to $50 in Europe is not equal to $50 in the Caribbean. Hell $50 here in Silicon Valley is most definitetly not the same as $50 in New York.

Just something to think about.

- Jeff

Jeff Lee said @ 11/03/2004 05:54 PM PST

I'm going to stay out of the Ugly American thread but touch on the topic of tips since I was thinking about this recently. Did you know that tax in Alameda is 8.75%? That means if you give what is now a low tip of 15% and add on the sales tax, you're paying almost 24% on top of your meal. If you tend to be more generous, you're surpassing the 25% mark. When I think about it, I feel like that's a lot. I think it's hard for people to stomach adding more to their total. My coworker has a tendency to take money away from the tip as taxes go up, which brings me to think about how if enough people feel that way, how will it affect the quality of service we receive?

maggie said @ 11/03/2004 05:40 PM PST

http://www.ricksteves.com/news/0208/eurotips.htm

no wonder everyone's so nice to us. We over tip in most places (maybe also b/c they expect good tip from us since they think we're Japanese). Hahah..

jenny said @ 11/03/2004 02:56 PM PST

http://www.ricksteves.com/news/0208/tipping.htm

I guess it's not call sitting fee :P It's call service charge. It just mean the tip's already included in your bill (kinda like here when you have a party of 6 or more but here they don't expect extra after that)

jenny said @ 11/03/2004 02:45 PM PST

On the issue of "Ugly Americans," I think you guys are talking about 2 totally different issues.

Here's my 2cent on what I think you 2 are saying:

Dennis's saying that "Ugly Americans" don't respect the local culture. They go to travel but expect everyone to talk to them in English instead of the local language, they expect to stll eat American food and watch HBO instead of trying local cuisine (kinda like all the chinese tour group always take you to chinese restaurant regardless of where you go), and think since they're spending money there, they're superior than the locals and should be treated so, instead of trying to make friends they expect royal treatment.

While Steve inferred Dennis' statement as Americans become 'ugly' because European provide crappy service, which is totally different than what dennis was saying.

jenny said @ 11/03/2004 02:29 PM PST

i personally like asia's no tipping policy and hated how in europe they charge a sitting fee (and still expect a tip). In China, though a lot of place don't accept tips, they provide excellent speedy service.

In Europe, most place we been to, waiters are very nice, however, very slow service. But that's part of the culture, everyone there seem to just take their times with their meals. Supposely, according to the nice waiter that served us in Paris, they love americans b/c we always tip even though the restaurant charge us sitting fee. He said the european, esp. the parisian, don't tip (that's why there's a sitting fee).

jenny said @ 11/03/2004 02:15 PM PST

I guess one thing I'm a bit confused about is whether or not you agree with the other cliches about "Ugly Americans" (e.g. "No loudmouthed, sandal and socks, Bermuda shorts and a funny hat wearing Americans." as this thread notes:

http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=40655

Here's a thread about Ugly Americans (and Ugly Japanese, and Ugly British)... mostly by other Americans:

http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/archives/ugly.html

[As an aside: American travelers wearing 10-gallon hats to Europe. Criminy!]

Regardless, one factor that has gone unsaid is the purpose and motivation of travel. Based on service expectations indicated, perhaps Club Meds, Disney, Cruises, Grand Cayman, and other packaged programs or "tourism is our only industry" locales are more appropriate if best-bang-for-the-buck destinations are desired.

As for economic models, if tipping and incremental revenue is so critical to good service, then places like Taiwan which have no-tipping would have the worst service. But then again, I've never been there...

Dennis T Cheung said @ 11/03/2004 01:35 PM PST